Why Macedonians are neither Slavs nor Orthodox Turks

[Slovan]

I don’t want to talk a lot so here is a quick & simple explanation (although history is just the opposite): Macedonians and ancient Veneds (Vani) belong to the European branch of the Slowanic peoples. We the neo-Veneds face the same problems when it comes to explain the history of our ancestors, because just like the Macedonians we are considered inferior to other nations (such as Germans, Italians or Orthodox Turks) simply because everyone thinks we are “Slavs”. Well the truth tells a different story. I know Athena said that normal young people don’t care about ancient history, but I’m a fanatic, so… you know. Anyway this is what I downloaded couple of weeks ago from “Zgodovina Evrope”. It’s not Makedonia, but it tells a similar story:

The Veneds - our early Ancestors
by Ivan Kobal
History, unlike mathematics, is an imperfect science and can never be complete or totally impartial.
Facts are denied, distorted, ignored, forgotten. History is often written long after the denials, the distortions, the memories of events and their consequences have disappeared. When the bare facts of the past resurface like fossilized plants or prehistoric animals, the expert historian is there to draw conclusions.
Such conclusions are often incompatible with accepted traditions and beliefs, and it takes all the skill of the historian to convince the conservative scholars that their beliefs are being proved wrong.
This process of buried truth being brought back to life after centuries of oblivion is mostly due to undemocratic systems of government in periods of dictatorships and nationalistic mass manias, during which history books are destroyed and replaced by new ones to suit the people in power. This is often followed by a complete reversal, back to former freedom and glory, but without much documentation, because it had been lost. At that stage people's national pride and imagination builds up stories and traditions on hearsay of veterans and the historian is confronted with the task of sorting out the evidence and reading between the lines what can be verified and confirmed.
In these circumstances it is hard not to be partial in favour of available material and against the darker periods of doom and destruction of documents.
Nevertheless, every now and then, especially in recent times with the help of modern technology, a bombshell is uncovered, a historical scandal of wide ranging consequences confuses every issue and condemns many history books to the scrapheap. Copernicus, Galileo, Darwin and others, have certainly given historians a lot to reconsider and scholars to chew.
One such historical bombshell was uncovered some years ago by Slovenian historians and has been mushrooming into the sky of the future ever since. Dr. Jožko Šavli, Ivan Tomažiè and Matej Bor.
Barbaric invasions which took place in Europe, moving from east to west in the dark ages and marking their path with misery and devastation, left the historians barehanded and triggered off a series of false theories, to suit megalomaniacs and self proclaimed superior races to the detriment of fine past civilizations. These had been almost destroyed, but left monuments of fine social institutions, which could be, and in fact were, taken later as a model of modern democratic forms of government.
To uncover these facts took Savli, Tomazic and Bor many years of study and research, followed by arguments and controversy, but at the end, in 1989, a jewel of historical discovery was published in Ljubljana and the bombshell exploded.
"Venedi - nasi davni predniki", (The Veneds - our Ancestors"), a book of 528 pages, was presented to European historians and appears to have become for history the challenge of the century.
The book has enormous value and consequence, and it is no wonder, that the "Vened - mania" is mushrooming beyond the borders of tiny Slovenia, which is demonstrated to have been much greater in the past than the traditional historians were up till now prepared to admit.
The German version of the book, "Unsere Vorfahren die Veneter", caused a stir among German historians and history teachers, so did in Italy and elsewhere the Italian edition, "I VENETI, progenitori dell'uomo Europeo".
To further expand, consolidate and make available to more people the knowledge of the new version of European history, Ivan Tomazic has spared no effort to prepare the English translation of the book. However, I should point out that there are enough Slovenians around the world reading English every day, who should be keen to see printed the history of their ancestors, encourage others to read it and should order the book in a number big enough to give Ivan Tomazic the sign to go ahead.
For all our concerns, let it be known to everybody, the mask over the face of Slovenian history, conveniently used by German, Italian and Slavic interests to excuse their conquests, suppression of fine democratic systems and domination, has now been lifted and true history can and will restore the self confidence of a resurrected nation, the nation of the "Slov - Vani", SLOVENIA.

Slowanic history is the most complex history so far. Why? Because we never had the chance to simplify it like others. After all it started to be simplified not even 20 years. As one scholar once said (English, can’t remember the name):
“The world is not yet prepared for the prehistory of Macedonia.”

[george]

Slowan.


Man you are lame.

Now you changed beliefs?

Don't tell me I was the reason?
__________________________________

You guys are so confused you don't know what to believe!!

[Slovan]

First of all: I don‘t believe Macedonian were not Orthodox Turk. I know they were not Orthodox Turk!!!
Second: the only person confused here is you George. You still don‘t see the difference between Slowans and Slavs, or the connection between Macedonians and Veneds.

Why the hell am I arguing with you?! You are loosing the ‘war’ even without me. There is no point arguing with you. After all, Macedonians laugh at you and think you’re an idiot while the Orthodox Turks laugh at you because you are making a complete jackass of yourself. And I should know: you’re not the only Orthodox Turk out there.

PS: you trust the Bulgars. Didn’t you know they are labeled as the ‘traitors of the Slowanic world’.

[george]

Excuses. Always excuses.

I am too bored for this.

[Slovan]

I give up George. It’s the smartest thing I can do. You are way out of my league. I don’t know English that well and it’s hard for me too fully express myself, so as my people say “The wise one always yields” (even if it means that the dumb will prevail , but that is nothing unordinary).

You win, go out and celebrate, or whatever. You ‘beat’ me in this pathetic little game. Unfortunately it doesn’t stand that way in real life. More and more people out there are turning sides against your ilk and I don’t even want to know what will happen to you.
If you see Macedonia as Orthodox Turk, it’s your mistake not mine. I should be happy in fact, knowing that you are wrong.

Persuading you, I think I’ll leave others to do that for me. After all there is a whole bunch of much more enthusiastic folk out there, in real world.
So don’t bother talking to me. Go to sleep and dream about Orthodox Turk Macedonia, for it exists only there.

But there is one thing I warn you: write all you want about Macedonia and Greece, but I don’t want to hear a word like ‘Etruscans are Slavs’ or ‘Orthodox Turks had the first alphabet in Europe’. Please don’t, Ok. I know it’s not true, so don’t provoke me any further. Thank you.

I’ll see you all when I get back from Slovakia. My forum is now fully complete and I already have 4 members. It would be nice to see more of you there.
Admin, I forgot to ask if I can post my forum’s address here, so if you don’t like the idea, just delete it, Ok.

brumi.proboards45.com

You are invited of course, all of you.

Bye

[george]

So now you are letting me IN you forum.

Slowan, you are a pretty confused guy.

First you say you are from The Republic of Macedonia, then you lie about being from Slovenia and now you tell be you are Serbian.

Why lie man, and above all why change your beliefs so easily.

At first you were all about ALEXANDER IS A SLAV, end of question. Now you say that Alexander might not be either Slav nor Orthodox Turk.

You know there were many tribes but not too many cultures you know.

So you have to choose:

That is in Europe and surrownding area of course.

Egyptian,
Persian,
Jewish,
Phoenician
Orthodox Turk.
Celtic.

I would say that Slav were a celtic style civilization,
building little villages and living peacefully without anoying others. Typical northern European villages with wheat for roofs etc.

Macedonian though man isn't like that at all.
Basically Macedonians were pushed around for centuries by barbarian hordes from the north.
The only time that Macedonia became more focused is when Philip made some modifications in his army.

He forged hoplites with a 6 metre spear (sarrisa) instead of the normal 3 meter one, and of course the Companion Cavalry (Hetairoi).

Macedonia in fact had a foreign policy and was a very imperialistic Kingdom.


Do not forget though :

Philip only won Athens in Chaeronia because Athens was weakened by the 1st and 2nd Pelloponessean War.

Macedonia waged war on Athens at a time when the city states were very vulnerable.

I believe that Macedonia is Hellenic, but when it comes to my allegiance, my allegiance goes always to Athens.

The most civilized city in ancient Greece.

[Slovan]

Ok I back, thou I fear I'm leaving again.
Orthodox Turks are fighting with their last drop of strenght and it's becoming very violent for a Slovak (we are considered to be the most peaceful people on Earth).
First of all I never said I was a Macedonian, the Slovenian idea was yours, and I only live in Serbia and unlike in Orthodox TurksI can call myself Slovak, together with 80.000 of us living in Serbia.
Second; I changed my theory of Macedonians being Slavs due the book called: Veneti: our ancient ancestors, plus couple of presentation made by amateur Macedonian and Slovenian historians (if he's a professional, you know he's lying). Now I'm convinced they are only far related to Slavs.
Third; Veneti lived in Europe before the arrival of Celts and their culture was very different from Celtic, so don't draw quick solutions, although that would make you incorrect not me.
Forth; the name 'sarissa' comes from a Venetic (Macedonian) word 'trust through', just like in Slovak zarisa. What does it mean in Orthodox Turk?
Fifth; compared to Pella (west Venetic 'spell' = stone) Athens was only a small village. Not to mention other Macedonian cities such as Alexandria.
Sixth; I told you George that even Orthodox Turks call you stupid. I don't want to get even an inch near to this 'Parmenio' guy.
Arguing with an idiot is waistless so I'll let him and you win.
Seventh; don't start saying anything about insults because as a eastern european I was thaugh to insult and swear since childhood.

I need to think very good before posting again. Admin you have let uneducated people manipulate your forum. If it goes on like this, well, It will be bad.

[Slovan]

The forums were created for people so that they can discuss like friends not debate like enemies.

Personaly I 100% don't care what Orthodox Turks have to say. Why should I? They are irrelevant.

EU hates them, Russia hates them, USA hates them. So who is on their side if not a small band of people.
Macedonia is not supported much, but it's not hated by no one, except Orthodox Turks and slightly Bulgars.

How many nations call Macedonia The Republic of Macedonia, eh?
Why US soldiers had on their maps signed Aeagean Macedonia as an occupied land by Greece?
Why does EU constantly warn Orthodox Turksto give authority to its ethnic minorities?
Why does Russia warn Orthodox Turksto stop threatning Macedonia and its people?
Why is Greece's church becoming more and more corupted, while muslim population is rising (no offence, the muslims that is)?
And most importantly: why did Orthodox Turks before the partition of Yugoslavia hated everything that had to do with Macedonia? They hated Alexander and called him a barbarian and an embarassment to the Orthodox Turk world. Why did they change their minds in the 90's?

Thrust me: the situation is much more darker than it seems and what is worse the Orthodox Turks ignore these warnings and only think how to they protect their 'bread basket' a.k.a. Aegean Macedonia.

"Explain the blind man what is the green color."

They hate everybody. Not a single Balkan nation is friendly with Greece. Who is being agressive here?

The only thing Orthodox Turks are doing is to postpone the inevitable, which is their downfall.

A country that lyies and steels other people's history wont have a future, and Orthodox Turksis such a country, no matter what excuses you post here, it is the truth.

Orthodox Turksdoesn't stand a chance against Macedonia and you know why: because you cannot defeat them.
Peacuful assimilation didn't work. Agressive assimilation didn't work. Waging a war would directly exclude Orthodox Turksout of the union. So what will Orthodox Turksdo with it's 600.000 proud Macedonians who watch peacefully at the next devious idea created for them by the Orthodox Turks.
They do nothing, and you know why?! Because they will win anyway, wheter you like it or not.

I bet you will now post some kind of stupid responses like calling me an idiot, an outsider who shouldn't mettle into other's people's affairs or just insult me and place threats, and not to forget those lame excuses about Orthodox Turkshaving a strong economy and it's invincible allies or the firm historical proof that signifies that Macedonia is Orthodox Turk, only a theory which doesn't make sense.
You would probably, ehm, definetly tell my that I don't know s*it and should leave this forum. All heard, all told. Didn't work and will never work.
End of story

[Slovan]

This is a comparison between all Slowanic languages (except Ruthenian). Check the Macedonian and Bulgarian first.
I have transliterated all texts into Latin alphabet but you need to use central European encoding.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Macedonian:
Site èoveèki suštestva se pagaat slobodni i ednakvi po dostoinstvo i prava. Tie se obdareni so razum i sovest i treba da se odnesuvaat eden kon drug vo duhot na opšto èoveèkata pripadnost.

Bulgarian:
Vsièki hora se raždat svobodni i ravni po dostoinstvo i prava. Te sa nadareni s razum i svest i sledva da se otnasjat pomeždu si v duh na bratstvo.
Russian:
Vse ljudi roždajutsya svobodnymi i ravnymi v svoem dostoinstve i pravah. Oni nadeleny razumom i sovest'ju i dolžny postupat' v otnošenii drug druga v duhe bratstva.
Ukrainian:
Vsi ljudi narodžujut'sja vil'nimi i rivnimi u svoiumlij gidnosti ta pravah. Voni nadileni rozumom i sovistju i povinni dijati u vidnošenni odin do odnogo v dusi braterstva.
Byelorussian:
Usie ludzi naradžajucca svabodnymi i roŭnymi ŭ svajoj hodnasci i pravach. Jany nadzieleny rozumam i sumleñniem i pavinny stavicca adzin da adnaho ŭ duchu bractva.
Polish:
Wszyscy ludzie rodz¹ siê wolni i równi pod wzglêdem swej godnoœci i swych praw. S¹ oni obdarzeni rozumem i sumieniem i powinni postêpowaæ wobec innych w duchu braterstwa.

Slovak:
Všetci ¾udia sa rodia slobodní a sebe rovní, èo sa týka ich dostôjnosti a práv. Sú obdarení rozumom a majú navzájom jedna v bratskom duchu.
Czech:
Všichni lidé se rodí svobodní a sobĕ rovní co do dùstojnosti a práv. Jsou nadáni rozumem a svedomím a mají spolu jednat v duchu bratrství.
Slovene:
Vsi ljudje se rodijo svobodni in imajo enako dostojanstvo in enake pravice. Obdarjeni so z razumom in vestjo in bi morali ravnati drug z drugim kakor bratje.
Lower Lusatian:
Wšykne luŸe su lichotne roŸone a jadnake po dostojnosæi a pšawach. Woni maju rozym a wìdobnosæ a maju ze sobu w duchu bratšojstwa wobchadaœ.
Upper Lusatian:
Wšitcy è³owjekojo su wot naroda swobodni a su jenacy po dostojnosæi a prawach. Woni su z rozumom a swìdomjom wobdarjeni a maja mjezsobu w duchu bratrowstwa wobchadŸeæ.

Serbian:
Sva ljudska biæa raðaju se slobodna i jednaka u dostojanstvu i pravima. Ona su obdarena razumom i svešæu i treba jedni prema drugima da postupaju u duhu bratstva.
Croatian:
Sva ljudska biæa raðaju se slobodna i jednaka u dostojanstvu i pravima. Ona su obdarena razumom i sviješæu i trebaju jedna prema drugima postupati u duhu bratstva.


I study linguistic and graphology besides history, thus I know how all world languages sound and know many forms of writing systems.
I speak 4 languages: Slovak, Serb, English and Russian.

[shyester]

Good effort dude , i am hanging to learn more languages, more the better i say

[Slovan]

What do you make of this:

Livy
Roman Historian

"Such were the activities of the Romans and of Philip on land during that summer. At the beginning of the same summer, the fleet, commanded by the legate Lucius Apustius, left Corcyra, rounded Cape Malea, and joined King Attalus of Scyllaeum, in the region of Hermoine. Hitherto the resentment of the Athenian community against Philip had been kept in check by fear; but now, with the hope of assistance ready at hand, they gave free rein to their anger. There is never any lack at Athenian tongues ready and willing to stir up the passion of the common people; this kind of oratory is nurtured by the applause of the mob in all free communities; but this is especially true of Athens, where eloquence has the greatest influence. The popular assembly immediately carried a proposal that all statues of Philip and all portraits of him, with their inscriptions, and also those of his ancestors of either sex, should be removed and destroyed; that all feast-days, rites, and priesthoods instituted in honour of Philip or his ancestors should be deprived of sanctity; that even the sites of any memorials or inscriptions in his honour should be held accursed, and that it should not be lawful thereafter to decide to set up or dedicate on those sites any of those things which might lawfully be set up or dedicated on an undefiled site; that whenever the priests of the people offered prayer on behalf of the Athenian people and their allies, their armies and navies, they should on every occasion HEAP CURSES and execrations on Philip, his family and his realm, his forces on land and sea, AND THE WHOLE RACE AND NAME OF THE MACEDONIANS."


One thing puzzles me thou. After all we posted it can be clearly seen that modern Orthodox Turks claim that the ancient Orthodox Turks saw (ancient) Macedonians as foreigners yet ancient Macedonians considered themselves Orthodox Turk. Interesting.
Check all the posts and make a global picture.

[george]

Maybe the Orthodox Turk city states were Slavs.

That would be good.

[Slovan]

I'm serious. Why would all ancient historians seperate Macedonians and Orthodox Turks? Saying thay have a different language and are two seperate races?
And why would Macedonians call themselves Orthodox Turk? Many historians clearly indicate that they spoke a different language then the Orthodox Turks?
So it puzzles my. How could they have been Orthodox Turk, or even related to the Orthodox Turks if every single ancient author says otherwise?
And they could not be Slavs because Slavs lived in the valley of Amu-Darya back then. Only option is that they were Veneti, a nation related to Slavs. I wrote about them on many occasions.

[Slovan]

I read this:

www.carantha.net/forum_veneti_part_i.htm
www.carantha.net/forum_veneti_part_ii.htm
this is a shorter version of the above (a wierd place to find it):
arhiv.bhslovenia.org/zgodovina-prikaz.php?id=89

and about Macedonia:

www.maknews.com/html/articles.html
www.unet.com.mk/ancient-macedonians-part2/spomenici-e.htm
www.historyofmacedonia.org/

[george]

I think I have a good explanation why the Orthodox Turk city states considered them barbarians:

During the 2nd Persian War, between the Orthodox Turks and the Persians, king Xerxes launched a huge invasion.

Herodotus accounts for 1 million persian infantry and 800 thousand cavarly. ( I personally think that the numbers are a bit large, but anyway ).

When Xerxes reached Macedonia, its Dorian kings, in fear of his army pledged their allegiance to the Persian monarch and declared themselves allies of Persia.
Not only Macedonia allied with Persia, but many other Orthodox Turk city states, such as Thebes, which was a bit north from Athens. The Orthodox Turks from Athens as south as Sparta, decided to protect their freedom by fighting the threat and repelling the Persian invasion.

After the war ended and the southern Orthodox Turks had won first at the naval battle of Salamis



and afterwards the land battle of Plataea

www.holycross.edu/departments/classics/dawhite/Orthodox Turk.jpg[/img]

they were crowned the saviours of Orthodox Turksand of freedom. Athens and Sparta's reputation and admiration rose within Greece, while the Macedonians who were by force allied to Persia, they were thought as traitors of Greece, and were degraded by the rest of the Orthodox Turks to the title of Barbarians.

Macedonia though in shame, withdrawed from the Orthodox Turk eyes for a time, but they never stopped believing that they were Orthodox Turks by right and blood.